Dickinsfield
Oumar and Bashir return to where it all began. They meet at Dickinsfield Junior High and discuss how this upbringing shaped their relationship to policing in Edmonton.
Avnish explains his work in the legal field and why police accountability is necessary for building safer communities.
Content Warning
This episode contains audio recordings of graphic police misconduct from 0:00 to 2:10, and contains references to the tragic murders of young Somalis from 2:10 to 6:29.
News Reporter
Overnight there were protests in dozens of cities across this country. Anger erupting over police brutality towards African Americans.
Bystander
You already know that, bro! I train with half these bum-ass dudes at the academy, bro. You know that’s bogus right now, bro. You know it’s bogus, you can’t even look at me like a man cause you a bum, bro. He is not even resisting arrest right now, bro.
Other Bystanders
His nose is bleeding. He’s passed out.
Bystander
You fucking stopping his breathing right now. You think that’s cool? You think that’s cool though right? What’s your name? Aw man what’s your badge number, bro? You think that’s cool right now, bro?
News Reporter
And tonight for the first time, we are hearing that 911 call from Breonna Taylor’s boyfriend. Kenneth Walker desperately begging for assistance all while trying to wake up his girlfriend that night.
Walker
Brinni...oh my god.
Dispatch
You said 26 12? Where is she shot at?
Walker
I don’t know. She is on the ground right now. I don’t know. Help! Oh my god, Breonna. Help...
Dispatch
Is she alert and able to talk to you?
Walker
No.
News Reporter
Questions are still swirling tonight about what exactly happened the moments before a young Black woman fell to her death from her High Park apartment yesterday. The province's police watchdog is now investigating as the family demands answers about how a call for help ended with such a horrific ending.
Bystander
It’s the way they went into it, how aggressively they went in there after a girl that is…
Other Bystander
100 pounds.
Bystander
…is 100 pounds. It’s the way that they went in there.
Regis’ Mom
I asked the police yesterday if they could take my daughter to care. And my daughter ended up dead.
Oumar Salifou (Host)
On October 31, 2008, Abas Abukar was found murdered in Northmount Park in Edmonton. He was shot hours earlier, and his body was exposed for students to gawk at as they started their day at Dickinsfield junior high. Abas was an electrical technician enrolled in the business program at Humber College in Toronto. He lived in Ontario with his family, and came to Edmonton for the summer to live with his pregnant sister and make some tuition money. He was 21 when he was killed.
The Edmonton Police suspected he had friends involved in gangs and drugs. His sister, Asha Abukar, told CBC in 2010 that the police didn’t do enough to solve his murder. She said, “they stated in the news, that when he passed away, it was supposedly gang related. But I believe they feel that it is better they kill each other off than housing them in jails. And that really breaks our hearts. Because my brother was not a criminal. My brother was a guy who was trying to start his life.”
I was one of those students that day at Dickinsfield who saw Abas in the park. So was Bashir Mohamed. We went back to Dickinsfield to reminisce on that moment and to talk about the community and the police.
Bashir
There was a lot of rumors. I remember everyone being a little on edge. Like all the teachers, admin and everything. And they had an assembly where they brought us all together. It was weird, I don’t remember much from the assembly. But I remember them telling us “don’t talk to media.” Because it’d make the school look bad or something. And I was just a kid. I didn’t really think it was that weird or anything until much later. Like we didn’t get any counselling or anything. It was just kind of a thing that happened. Like right there.
Oumar
So, I remember walking into school, and my parents always dropped me off very early. So by the time I got here, there was like a crowd of kids facing in this direction right here and basically you could see in the distance… if you moved close enough you could see a guy laying down essentially. And there was a crowd of kids, and basically people were like “oh yeah that guy is dead.” Most people didn’t believe that. We were like “oh you’re just messing with us” or whatever. So yeah it was very surreal when we had that assembly and it was like, wow this actually happened. And the fact it happened on Halloween, that’s an added, creepy effect to it.
Bashir
I guess for some context, I grew up Somali in Edmonton. And growing up in that time, the late 2000s early 2010s, there was a large number of Somali murders. I think it was upwards of 30 murders in Alberta. So right after this one happened, I was watching TV and heard a bunch of gunshots, saw a bunch of police come. And on the 11 o’clock Global News they were talking about a murder. And I found out it was this young guy. I think early 20s. His name was Ahmed. And he was just killed in the parking lot. And the wild thing about that was, the next day all the cops were gone and I just walked to school. It was like no one really acknowledged it. In hindsight I kinda look back and it’s kinda messed up. So much of our childhood — like my childhood and your childhood — is scattered with those memories.
Oumar
If we can just describe the school now. We’re here in 2020, and everyone here is Black. Like there is a guy playing soccer in the field right now — Black dude. There are plenty of people on the basketball court, and I think it was relatively similar when I went to school. It’s a very diverse neighbourhood and a very diverse school as well.
Bashir
Sorry I just noticed. You saw how that kid rode his bike down the hill? That’s how I learned how to ride my bike. My sister took me to the top of a hill not that far away and she pushed me down the hill until I could ride the bike. So it’s kinda weird, I’m looking around seeing all these memories. Nothing has really changed. The only thing that has really changed is the kids playing basketball. Like I played basketball on that court. Those kids are just the next generation, and it’s kinda weird not recognizing them. Because growing up here, even in university, I’d come back and recognize all the kids. So it’s now weird to see a new generation dealing with the same things we dealt with. Because there is still murders that happen and there is still issues with policing.
Oumar
I’m Oumar Salifou, and you’re listening to Is This For Real? I’ve been an Edmonton-based journalist since 2015, and met Bashir when we both studied at the University of Alberta. When the world erupted into protest against anti-Black racism and police brutality, I got together with Bashir and Avnish Nanda, an Edmonton-based lawyer, to tell the story of how these topics play out in our own city. We don’t want this moment to fade away and let problems with policing and racism continue to linger in our community. That is why we launched this 10-episode podcast project. We’ll be investigating how police in Edmonton intersect with various institutions that affect our lives. From the school system to the media and representation in the police force. Now back to my conversation with Bashir.
Oumar
What kind of characterized your experiences as a kid with the police?
Bashir
Well I remember how they would patrol my neighbourhood. So my neighbourhood is not that far from here. It’s a social housing unit, and it was Dickinsfield #3. But the different social housing units had different colours. So there was the brown houses, the green houses, the white houses, and I lived in the brown houses. And it was like a circle, sort of like a donut actually. So there was two ways to get in. There was inner houses and outer houses, and it was all social housing. And the way police would patrol is that they would drive in, do a loop really quick, and then zoom out. And anytime something happened... I remember they were looking for this guy, and what they would do is they would close off both entrances with cops, swarm the neighbourhood, and if anyone stepped outside then they would sometimes draw guns. And I vividly remember that. I remember that happening to my sister. She was on the porch when it happened. And it was wild. So I guess that’s my early experience. Not even cops walking. It was police vehicles, or police SWAT teams, or those big trucks they bring after a murder.
Because there are so many Black people… you’re right. Literally every single person in this field is Black. Like on the court, soccer field, even the kids… they are Somali. I can tell from here that they are Somali. And yeah, I obviously felt like an outsider in Edmonton. But when I was in this neighbourhood — Dickinsfield, Northmount, and all that — I felt like I was part of a community. Kids would play outside, kids would play basketball, we’d hang out by these rocks that are by our neighbourhood. But anytime I left to go to high school, and I would go to Tim Hortons outside my neighbourhood, I remember getting looks from people. Because Somalis were not seen that positive then, and people could clock me as Somali pretty easy. So I guess it was to always live under suspicion. Also the way Somalis were portrayed in the media, too. When all the murders were happening, we were seen as gangsters, supporting gangs because police framed us as not wanting to cooperate. I remember there was a murder that happened and a detective — I think his name was Bill Smith or something…
Oumar
Just to jump in here, the EPS detective’s name is actually Bill Clark not Bill Smith.
Bashir
He straight up said that if the Somali community wouldn’t cooperate, that we would move on to different cases. They said that, and they later had to apologize. But you can see... people wanted these murders solved. They didn’t really seem like they were putting that much effort into community relations. Instead, they treated us like we were under occupation. The other thing: the cops that did come by, the cops I did see, the cops I did interact with, it’s like they weren’t even from the neighbourhood. It’s like they were from St. Albert, Sherwood Park. It just felt like we were being policed by a foreign force. And they were all white. I don’t remember a Black cop coming until much, much later.
The police, they still have a tough relationship with the Somali community, with the Black community. They still don’t want to address systemic racism in the force, and there is still a lot of secrecy around stuff like the School Resource Officer Program. So I don’t think much has changed. I think a lot of it is still the status quo. I think if anything, that’s why this project matters. Because we want there to be some type of change. We’ve now grown up. We’re now in the position where we can actually research this and get answers as to whether or not our experiences are real.
Oumar
Avnish Nanda is a lawyer in Edmonton. He represents clients that sue the government and police in Alberta and British Columbia.
Can you just give me an oversight of how you could characterize the institution of the Edmonton police, where the power lies? Who are the change makers, what have you kind of seen as someone who has worked in that area?
Avnish Nanda
Well, it’s a labyrinth. There are so many different moving parts, So many different interests. It’s a massive, massive institution. And it’s competing... it exists in Edmonton, but there are different police forces across the province that are subject to the same rules, structures, but operating differently. So it’s impossible to wrap your head around the complexity and the size of the police force — what it does, it’s history, all that. But I think anyone that has dealt with it even to a minimal degree knows that it needs to change. There needs to be major overhauls and there’s a lack of oversight, both from people like myself who represent people who have bad interactions with them, from a governance standpoint — from the city, police commission, as well the province — but also from the media, because so much happens within the police which receives a significant amount of taxpayer funding, does a lot of important stuff, wields an enormous amount of power. But it’s hard for folks to keep them in check because it’s just that we’re in this day and age where I don’t think media has the resources to engage it it. The police are just a massive complex entity.
Oumar
Media has its failings and has its lacking in terms of keeping them accountable. What are the formal structures in place to keep officers accountable when it comes to misconduct, when it comes to complaints, or just changes that need to be made in this institution.
Avnish
Well the Police Act is the governing body. So police forces are a creature of statute. The powers of police officers are governed by the Police Act and how it’s governed. The oversight that’s provided and all things of that nature emanates from that piece of legislation. Right now we have an outdated police act. We have a police act meant for policing maybe 20-30 years ago and times have changed. Expectations have changed. A lot of the power rests with the police commissions. These provincially constituted bodies that are supposed to work with municipalities and have municipal representatives on there. But they yield an enormous amount of power over all aspects of policing. They’re supposed to provide that check on policing power, but I don’t think anyone in Alberta really knows, cares, or wants to engage with them. And I don’t think that police commission bodies care. So I think you get people and decisions made that may not reflect the best interests of the public but may reflect the best interests of those that show up to these engagements. Which is often the police union or police services.
In democracies, in our system of government, sunlight in the form of transparency and accountability is what ensures that systems operate as intended. “Intended” in the sense, not in how government create things, but how the public expects them to operate. That ensures that occurs. That people are able to figure out what’s happening. They they are able to examine it and to determine it’s in their interest or it meets their expectations. And I think that when it comes to policing — that is not happening in this province, and I think the recognition of that comes in the form of... you know we have systems around police oversight and disciplinary stuff where even the police acknowledge that it is deficient, that it’s not working. So if you have members of the public, police reform advocates, and you have police officers all agreeing that the system of police oversight — particularly dealing with complaints — is not working. Why hasn’t it changed? You know, there’s something going on here that doesn’t add up. If all stakeholders agree that something need to change, and they’ve agree for the last decade and that hasn’t happened, then the public needs to ask that question. Why are we dragging our heels on this stuff? So that’s my hope. That we’ll have an engaged, thoughtful understanding about policing and its nuance and where it has to head in 2020 in Alberta.
Bashir
For starters, I’m not an academic. I’m not really a journalist or anything. I’m literally just a random guy who is frustrated by the secrecy when it comes to policing in our city. So for example, I was the guy who got the carding data from the Edmonton Police Service. Data that showed Black people were 5-6 times more likely to be carded than white people. Indigenous women were 12 times more likely to be carded. And I did that because I remember asking a cop “do we have a problem here?” Because in Toronto, the stats were released and showed there was a problem. And the cop told me no. And if I was young — like the age of the kids here — then I would have just let it go and just lived my life. Because I had other things to worry about. But I decided to find out more. It was a tough fight because once we actually released the data, once we showed there was a problem, what ended up happening was that they pushed back hard. Edmonton Police tries to push this reputation that they’re a compassionate force, that they care about diversity and all that. But the police chief back then wrote an op-ed saying street checks are based off circumstance not race. Completely gaslighting us, completely saying that our claims weren’t real.
Another thing I worked on is SROs: School Resource Officers. I grew up with a cop in my high school, didn’t really think it was weird because we were just used to it. I wanted to find out more about the program, and I asked for basic data. I asked for how many arrests there are in schools, how many fines, what type of investigations go on in schools. I also asked for a breakdown of race, gender, and all that. And the price I was quoted was $64,000. If the Edmonton Police were this compassionate force, they would just give me this information. But instead I was met with a blue wall every single time.
Oumar
Why do you think you were met with that wall?
Bashir
Because I think they want to uphold the system. The first step of solving a problem is by recognizing that there is one. So by Edmonton Police continuing to gaslight people like me, the Somali community when we say that there are problems, it shows that they’re not really interested in solving these problems. So for me it’s kind of recognizing that and realizing that it’s something that I kind of have to do on my own. Weirdly enough, in this moment there is now a lot of interest in this work. But it’s already made change. The data lead to the program being heavily cut, carding has went down substantially. Now every incident has to be reviewed by a committee, it has to be reported to the police commission quarterly. So there was some systemic change, and if we didn’t ask those questions then I don’t think that would have happened. And I guarantee you that police would have never done that on their own.
When it comes to the murders... when you grow up here, a lot of us are put in social housing. It wasn’t by choice really. A lot of our parents in Somalia were in the trades, or they were professionals like engineers or nurses. Like my dad was an engineer, my mom was training to be a nurse. So when we came here, their degrees were not recognized. So my mom cleaned at an old folks home. She was like a janitor there. And my dad, he worked at Rona and he also worked at a meatpacking plant in Brooks. So we really didn’t see him that much. So you have many of these households where both parents are working double-shifts. And the kids are growing up low income, there’s not many opportunities for them. And with all that, we’re kind of isolated here. We’re kind of pushed into these area, these communities, and we’re kind of left on our own. And then government, police, and schools question why we’re not performing well in school academically, so they stream us in lower courses. Police, they bust us for really small things. They then look at us and say that we’re problems when we’re not. Like this is a very vibrant community. If we had the same funding, the same resources, if we had the same type of policing that a suburb has. Not that far from here, like the one just on the other side of 97 street. We’d be doing fine.
Bashir
One of my last few years living here, I actually decided to confront a cop. And it was risky. What they do is they’ll drive around the neighbourhood at like 1 km/hr with all their lights on. And they’ll actually do a few loops, and it’s called preventative policing. And they would do this at midnight. I remember one time I had to work the next morning, and I was really annoyed. So I went downstairs and at this point I’m 17, 18... maybe 19. Anyways, I walk out the door. My mom is like really afraid, and just tells me to be careful. And I go up to this cop, and I ask him why they are doing that. You know, people are trying to sleep. And one of the first things he says is, “hey, you know this is a rough area right?”
Oumar
Bashir actually recorded the entire interaction he had with the police that day.
Bashir
What are you guys doing?
Officer 1
What are we doing? What are you doing?
Bashir
Guys, this is the second time you’ve done this in a few weeks.
Officer 1
Yep.
Bashir
You come around the neighbourhood with your lights flashing.
Officer 1
True.
Bashir
And I am trying to sleep. I have to work at 5 am.
Officer 1
Okay.
Bashir
And last time that happened for about half a hour.
Officer 1
Well we will be faster.
Bashir
What is the policy? What’s the procedure? Are you guys looking for someone?
Officer 1
You live in this area, right?
Bashir
Yeah I live right there.
Officer 1
So you know this is kinda a rough area right?
Bashir
Yeah. What’s the procedure? Like i’m just curious about the policy.
Officer 1
Why are we doing this? It’s because this is a bad neighbourhood, and we want people to know we’re here and we are watching. And if we see people out at night after dark, we want to talk with them, engage with them, and find out who’s here, who shouldn’t be here. That sort of thing. But also the other side of it, we want everybody to know we’re here, we’re coming here a lot.
Bashir
Do you guys have a community engagement officer?
Officer 2
That’s me.
Bashir
You’re North-East District right? That’s you? I thought it was Chilli.
Officer 1
He was with us. He was the guy, and now he’s moved on.
Bashir
Are you Terry?
Officer 2
No. He’s another guy. He’s another colleague that works for…
Bashir
You guys used to do beat patrols during the day. What happened?
Officer 1
Well we still do that.
Bashir
Like foot patrols. Like people would walk by.
Officer 1
That still happens too.
Bashir
You sure?
Officer 1
Yeah? Are you not seeing them? Is that what you’re saying?
Bashir
Well I work 9-5 so.
Officer 2
I myself was here a few weeks ago, in this area doing the same thing. Driving around slowly. Doing the same thing. Me, myself.
Bashir
But the lights. I just want to make it clear, a lot of people work early. I have to be up at 5 and this is the second time that this has happened. And my window, the lights, flash into my window.
Officer 2
You can get black out blinds. That’ll block out some light.
Bashir
Yeah but…
Officer 1
Because I’ll tell you what the alternative is. We don’t come around here. And then somebody breaks into your car and there’s people that are all over the streets. That’s why we’re here, right? Because there was the problem. We’re following the problem, right?
Bashir
But you guys don’t have to do the lights.
Officer 2
Yeah we do.
Bashir
Is that procedure?
Officer 1
Well yeah, it really is. It’s part of the problem solving here.
Bashir
Yeah but not everyone here can afford the…
Officer 1
I’m sorry what’s your name?
Bashir
Bashir.
Officer 1
Bashir? I’m Robby, Bashir.
Bashir
Nice to meet you, Robby. And you’re?
Officer 2
I’m Keith.
Bashir
Keith. Are you guys North-East?
Officers
Yeah.
Bashir
Is this?
Officer 2
I am going to be your new constable. You’re liaison constable. That’s me. I’ve been working North-East division for five and a half years. And now I’m in this position where I am into this area where all the problem areas are.
Officer 1
He’s your neighbourhood cop.
Officer 2
What has been defined as a problem area, like all the statistics… this is one of them. So we, as a policy, as EPS, as an organization, said one way we are going to combat this is high visibility policing. We are going to put ourselves right in the middle of where the problems are. Unfortunately, you happen to live there. And unfortunately, you are going to get lights in your eyes.
Bashir
I was a part of Black Lives Matter Edmonton like three years ago with the carding stuff. And I remember it was hard to get even 20 people out to something. It was extremely difficult. And it was also a huge risk to say “Black Lives Matter.” I vividly remember having professional consequences. Like I know I lost out on jobs just because I was associated with Black Lives Matter. Personal consequences, people hated us. Politicians didn’t want to associate with us. We were seen as radical ones. The same politicians now that are tweeting #BlackLivesMatter are those that didn’t want to be seen near us.
So I kind of come from that. Because it’s a bit surreal to then look at this moment and see ten to fifteen thousand people by the legislature shouting “Black Lives Matter.” Like that’s surreal. It makes me a little optimistic but it makes me cautious too, because the danger is a year from now we go back to having you know 10 to 20 people showing up to things. So I hope we can sustain this moment, and I think one way to sustain this moment is a focus on local issues. Because, unfortunately, at that protest — at least my perception of it — is that there wasn’t much of a focus. It was more of a solidarity protest to what was happening in the US. And the danger there is that people will leave thinking that there’s not really issues here.
So I think maybe this is why this project is important. Because yeah, it comes from this moment we are in, and I call it a moment because I don’t really understand it yet. Like, you know what I mean? We still haven’t left it and it’s still going strong. I guess me and you, we want this moment to keep going. We want to do something meaningful that’s long term. So that this is not something that just lasts a month.
One of the ways this will lose speed and lose momentum is if the Edmonton Police and our politicians are successful in trying to avoid accountability by pretending that these issues are not real. So, I don’t know, I think that’s why it’s important we’re doing this. So that we can show people that these issues are real. And we’re talking a lot about our personal experiences, but we’re gonna show people the data, we’re gonna show the research, we’re gonna give police the opportunity to respond. I think this is a good opportunity to show how policing is in Edmonton and how policing Black lives is in our city.
Oumar
Me and Bashir still don’t know what happened to Abas. The police don’t either. They still haven’t found who killed him and are currently offering a $40,000 reward for any information leading to the arrest of the person responsible. I can’t help but think that the kids that are playing on the basketball court that day also have no idea what happened just a few metres across the field from where they are playing now.
(Click here for an article about Abas Abukar and other Canadian Somalis who died during this tragic period).
Oumar
Thank you for listening to today’s episode of Is This For Real? I want to take a moment to thank everyone who has supported the show on Patreon. It’s been overwhelming to receive all this support and we can’t thank you enough. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, you can always email me at oumar@isthisforreal.ca. Our team is excited to explore this topic more, and we will be back in another episode in July. Thank you again for listening.
