A Learning Moment
As a podcast that strives to properly communicate the experiences of Black Edmontonians, it’s been difficult to produce content with only one voice. Today we’re introducing a co-host, Hannan, who will bring important perspectives and talents to the project! Hannan and Oumar discuss their goals for this podcast and the importance of editorial freedom.
Hannan Mohamud (Co-Host)
This podcast, to me, is a learning experience. I think we’re both going to learn how to work with each other and how to utilize this platform with each episode as it comes. But I also see it as a learning moment for other people. And know that this is hard for us, you know, as two Black people, we’re going to be delivering some content that we ourselves are digesting probably for the first time and investigative work that truly does resonate with us. We can identify in this stuff.
We want other people to take a step back and, rather than just feeling shock and shame and these emotions that would limit them from learning, to kind of hesitate and just take it all in and process it slowly as we go.
🎵 (Intro Music)
Hannan
So I messaged Avnish, I tried to connect him with a few of my friends because there’s not a lot of lawyers out there that will try to address race in such a serious way.
And I think it was that Habitat For Humanity case that got my attention, because this was an affordable housing crisis that was going on affecting low income Black families. And no one was really, you know, giving them a leg up and trying to stand up for them.
So I messaged him and was like, I see the work you’re doing. I tried to connect a lot of the people I know to him. He messaged me — oh no, I also asked if he had any opportunities, if he had anything that he needed assistance with! Like I'm so down to volunteer and just like, you know, follow his work.
And then he messaged me a month or two months ago saying, you know, I have this amazing opportunity. Are you interested? And I didn’t want to press on what the opportunity was, I wanted to actually figure out what it was face-to-face or FaceTime or Zoom. And he told me about the podcast and how there was an opportunity to be a writer so whether it be writing blogs or helping out with research, there was an opportunity for growth.
And that’s not what I was expecting! I was expecting more of a hands on approach with what he was doing case wise. But this was like — because I am a listener of the podcast. I see the great work you guys are doing in this community and how the city needs more perspectives of Black voices sharing. It’s not just our stories being told by us, but how it’s being told, the language that's being used. I think language goes such a long way in how you deliver things.
So I was floored, I said yes obviously. But do you want to ask how this happened and how suddenly now I am a co-host?
Oumar Salifou (Co-Host)
When we first started the podcast, me and Bashir thought that it would be a good idea to have me as the sole employee of Is This For Real? and that model really didn’t work for us. It was very difficult for us to produce what we wanted to produce and just have it be one person. And I definitely got support from Nicholas. I got support from Avnish. And Bashir was a really integral part of getting the episodes out, but it was very difficult. We knew that we had to change things.
So yeah, when the opportunity came to bring on Hannan, it was really perfect for us. So yeah, I think that's kind of how we got to this point.
Hannan
Yeah, I mean I was definitely surprised. I didn’t think my voice could be something that we could utilize here, I thought it would be more of my work. But I am very excited.
Oumar
You went to school at the University of Alberta as well, but you were at Augustana, which is interesting. Do you want to tell us more about what Augustana is like and living near Camrose?
Hannan
Yeah, so Augustana is the small faculty of the University of Alberta. There’s a really small — like 1,500 residents that can live there. So it was really surprising when I went down. I assumed there would have been more at least people of colour or even Indigenous people because it was so close to Wetsakawin. But I remember being probably the only Black person, if I didn't see my sister because she also went there.
But as the years went on, I saw that this increase of Black students. In my final year, we had the most Black students. The intake was I think about 100, around 100. It was a lot of first year students, and it was phenomenal. We had a good mixture of people that were coming from African countries and southeast Asian countries, like all around the world. And it showed that Black people didn’t just come from Africa. A Lot of us have moved and have lived in different areas as a result of neo-colonialism or whatever, all these other things that are going on in that continent.
But it was great that we all came together, originally because we were all Black people. But afterwards, it became a common goal to try to understand the systems that were working around us. And we formed a group called the Diversity Working Group which awkwardly, in my final year, was referred to as a hate group by some students. Because we advocated for — it’s in the name! Diversity Working Group.
Oumar
And what year was that?
Hannan
That was in my fourth year, so… I graduated in 2019.
It was really surprising to me, but a lot of faculty and staff, and even just like the librarians, they knew what we were doing. They supported us. They gave us spaces when you had to book months in advance for this type of thing. They would try to make it easier for us and reduce that red tape so we could get our message across. And whatever events we were doing, they would bring their own family. Like they were, they were really about it.
But it was kind of upsetting when, you know, students weren’t so keen on trying to understand what we were trying to say. Especially with a lot of them saying “Oh, you're the first Black person I've ever met! Or the first hijabi that I’ve ever met!” I was hoping that people would receive coming to our events or trying to understand where we were coming from because they already knew, this is our first experience with people that look like this. We're trying to get to know them.
Oumar
So that’s a really fascinating experience. I don’t think many Black people or people in general get to experience what you did going to kind of a rural satellite college in the middle of Alberta. But you also grew up in Dickinsfield, which I think is a pretty incredible thing that you should definitely tell us more about.
Hannan
Yes, I grew up in Dickinsfield. I went to Glengarry elementary school. I lived there for about, I want to say 12 years of my life? And then I lived in Malaysia afterwards for 10 years, so I moved. But growing up in Dickinsfield was the only experience in my life where I lived in an area where there were more people that looked like me. There were more people that were headscarves around me, there were more people that were of the same faith as me, there were more Indigenous people around us.
So from a young age I already learned, my neighbours would be telling me, “you were born in 1996, so that’s when the last residential school was closed.” And I would ask, “what's that? What's a residential school?” So that was my first time getting to know and understand the struggle Indigenous people were facing in Canada.
And also trying to understand this wider refugee movement that was happening in Dickinsfield. Dickinsfield was the place where you would go and you would find a bed to sleep that night if you were looking for somewhere. Or some food. People were very, very welcoming, and in my final years of living there I noticed this change. There would be hesitation to go visit peoples’ homes, my mom wouldn’t be braiding my hair outside anymore, like we would be inside.
And the fear wasn’t something my parents would explain to me. Like they would just say we’re trying to keep safe, we’re trying to understand what’s going on in itself. But slowly… it definitely had to do with the up in policing, or it had to do with more “incidents” is what they would call them. Or they would try to “stop things from happening.” It confused me a lot because hello, my mom would be braiding my hair outside like from sun down and it would still be dark outside, and it was totally safe. But slowly we started noticing this change.
And when I moved I didn’t return to Dickinsfield until after I graduated from Camrose. And once I did, I saw this huge difference. The areas I used to play, the community league, the place where I even got the milk for my mom. Like I would walk and buy milk sometimes as a young kid, and it was super safe. But now, when I walk there and see it, I would never let a 10 year old walk and go and get milk. It doesn’t seem safe at all, like it doesn’t seem like the place that I grew up in.
And I don’t see it as the community that’s not making it safe. I see it as a failure in the part of our society in ensuring that is the place where I grew up and sustain that, if that makes sense.
Oumar
No, that makes a lot of sense. And just like supporting those communities specifically, because we know that historically, at least for the past decades, a lot of Black people live there. So why is it that, that community doesn’t get the support to not only do beautification or at least make it more livable, but a lot of other things that a lot of other communities have access to.
I guess going from there, you have just graduated university. Congratulations on that.
Hannan
Thank you, thank you.
Oumar
And you're going to start school. Do you want to tell us more about that?
Hannan
Yeah. I graduated like in 2019 and I worked for this this year, because I applied for law schools and I didn’t get in the first round. And although I was super frustrated about that, I kind of saw this as an opportunity to do more character development. I mean, law school would have been an extremely challenging thing for me to do after Camrose, and not processing what has happened in my life so far. And also not taking a break and getting to know my family better. I mean, I’d been in Malaysia for 10 years with them, but I feel that I wasn’t able to kind of conceptualize my life so far. And I took this year to do a lot of healing to ensure that when I do get into law school, I can just thrive if that makes sense.
So I applied and I got into the University of Ottawa, which was my first choice, and I’m extremely grateful for it. I hope to specialize in international law and investigate human rights violations, but I do also want to do social justice. In the terms of not just performing social justice, but having movements be built from the bottom up.
And I think movements — someone once said this to me — movements are essentially when people are sick of the truth not being told. So they’re truth tellers, they’re trying to seek truth. And the opposite of that are people just trying to maintain the norm. And it’s not to say that they’re liars, but the point is to shed light on injustices that have been happening for so long. And I do want to continue that work. I want to continue it in the form of legal advocacy. Rather than people hearing the law and feeling afraid, I want the law to be used as something that would bring justice for all, rather than justice for just a few.
Oumar
You’re also going to help continue that work with this podcast. That's a really good segue into what we want out of this podcast project, but I think also out of this platform. So in your eyes, what do you want out of this opportunity with Is This For Real?
Hannan
So I had to think about this a lot because, other than the continuous gaslighting of myself, I also want to know that I’m worth this opportunity. I can see myself sharing, not just my perspectives, but sharing perspectives that I’ve learned from other people. So this podcast to me is a learning experience. I think we’re both going to learn how to work with each other and how to utilize this platform and each episode as it comes.
But I also see it as a learning moment for other people. And know that this is hard for us, you know, as two Black people, we’re going to be delivering some content that we ourselves are digesting probably for the first time and investigative work that truly does resonate with us. We can identify in this stuff. We want other people to take a step back and, rather than just feeling shock and shame and these emotions that would limit them from learning, to kind of hesitate and just take it all in and process it slowly as we go. I mean this is, again, a learning experience for both of us. And I hope our viewers... as someone who was a viewer, I hope that I can bring that magic that I saw in you. And share Black voices truthfully, without filtering it and without worrying of consequences. I’m really excited, I’m really excited for the work we’re going to do.
Do you have a title, Oumar? Like are you a community advocate, activist… are you just Oumar?
Oumar
I’m just Oumar. I don’t like titles. I’ve tried to put a title on myself for a very long time and I just decided it’s easier not to do that.
Hannan
Or you just do too much! You’re really out here doing the absolute most. We love to see it, Oumar.
Oumar
Yeah, I’m very inspired by people like you, Hannan. I’m very inspired especially by Bashir. I’ve seen him work in Edmonton since 2015, so he’s really put in the work and it inspires me to do the same.
Hannan
Yeah, I mean if this is an inspiring shoutout to each other. I knew both of you before you even knew me, from the work you guys did. You with The Gateway, being the chief editor as a Black man. As a Black student, you know, it made me really aspire to reach investigative research heights. It really did show even though I was in a different campus, like I had no business reading The Gateway, but I did read it and it was specifically because I knew that Black voices would be centered and Black issues because you were in that position.
And similarly with Bashir, like in 2017 the waves he made with the whole carding discussion. How he really showed out for the Black student that was called out by the... the whole Catholic school situation. And how strong this little kid was in the face of blatant discrimination from a teacher and a whole administration. And it was amazing to see how people showed up, I think it was 15,000 people who showed up at the legislature.
I just truly hope that we can keep that energy going so that future Emmell’s, future you’s or Bashir’s, when you guys are out there actually and actively dealing with situations, that 15,000 people can show up for you. Because we do know that Edmonton has these numbers of people that do care about these issues. I just hope we can keep that momentum going with this podcast as well.
Oumar
I think that put it perfectly. Is there anything else that we need to cover? I’m trying to remember now.
Hannan
Well, one thing to me is trying to understand how we ended up here. You know, we don’t just wake up one day saying I want to make a podcast talking about black lives in Edmonton.
Oumar
It’s funny you say that, but that's actually what happened.
Hannan
Oh, wow. Please share more.
Oumar
Yeah, Avnish woke up one day and said that he wanted to do a podcast on issues of policing issues of racism against Black people, against Indigenous people. He wanted this to be a thing. So he messaged Bashir, he messaged me, and we made it a thing. Literally two weeks - a month later, we made it a thing.
I just think it was also, all these people were uniquely positioned to be able to accomplish this. And we just had the right people during the right times. Like Nicholas for example, someone who worked with Bashir a lot, that connection wouldn’t have been obvious if Avnish didn’t ask Bashir and Bashir didn’t ask Nicholas. And now we have, you know, what we have now. So I think we were just uniquely positioned. And my background as well as a journalist. And before this, people may not know, but I was actually working as an essential worker.
Hannan
Amazing.
Oumar
Yeah. I was working with Big brothers Big Sisters Edmonton, Boys & Girls Club. And basically just delivering food hampers. And yeah, COVID was happening, I got laid off. So I put out a tweet basically asking if anyone had work available. And Avnish was one of the first people to respond or at least retweet it.
And then a few days later he messaged me about this podcast. So yeah, it’s a little bit of the background. And I had a lot of experience in campus journalism before, and I had done a few other things before that. But this is one of my, I guess, first post-university experiences when it comes to doing journalism, at least in a meaningful way.
Hannan
It’s good to know that a lot of that was done intentionally. Like, although you guys were in very unique spaces, you guys had... I think to me, the common factor was intention. The intention to share and elevate Black voices, but to also shed that on Edmonton right now. And I think the city is missing that a lot right now.
Oumar
Yeah, I really think it is. And it’s a weird position to be in, because I think people want projects like this. They want voices that haven’t been represented. They want people to have more power and more influence in various institutions, but there is still a lack of that. There’s still a chronic lack of that.
So I think just taking things into our own hands, doing this the way we want to do it, and making sure that it lasts for a very long time, I think it’s what we’re trying to do. It really is.
Hannan
Exactly. And in this situation, I truly appreciate Patreon and how people are able to not only just be listeners, but actually actively participate by supporting and donating to this cause. Because there’s not a lot of grants out there, huh Oumar?
Oumar
It’s tough.
Hannan
It’s tough in these streets.
Oumar
A lot of paperwork. I got to do a lot of paperwork to get grants. The Patreon money is so important and so well appreciated. Because it really is just no questions asked, kind of just direct. So I think it just makes our lives so much easier. We don’t have to worry about anything. We can just, you know, make what we want.
Hannan
Exactly, yeah. A lot of people don’t talk about that fear of editorial creativity. And if it was a grant, or if this was one single support mechanism, it would have all these requirements that we would have to fill in. It’s worrisome for an investigative journalist type of thing to base their research on receiving a grant. There’s a word for that, I can’t think of it...
Oumar
It’s a tricky situation because obviously every project needs some type of funding to run itself. But I think there are honest ways and there are dishonest ways to get funding. And I think that, in order to create a project that is honest and free from negative influence, or influence that’s in the interests of certain people, I think you need to have honest sources of funding and transparent sources of funding as well.
We’ve received a few grants. One from the Edmonton Community Foundation...
Hannan
Amazing.
Oumar
Yeah, a really amazing organization that’s supported us from the beginning, really. I think it’s just trying to be honest with who you’re getting funding from, and just making sure that you’re transparent with listeners.
We’re looking to start really trying to get people to communicate with us in more open ways. Obviously you can always email us. My email is oumar@isthisforreal.ca. Hannan, your email?
Hannan
hannan@isthisforreal.ca.
Oumar
You can also DM us. We have a Twitter account. We have an Instagram account. We’ll look at your DMs, we’ll definitely answer them.
So if you want to get in touch with us, if you have any questions, comments, concerns. If you just want to chat about the situation that you’re going through, that you think we might be able to support you, just get in touch.
I’m excited. I think we're going to do a lot of great work. Thank you for supporting the podcast, if you’re listening and you’re a supporter on Patreon. I really appreciate everything that we’ve been able to do so far. I'm so happy to have Hannan on the team and...
Hannan
Happy to be here. Happy to be here.
Oumar
Yeah, we’ll talk to you soon!